Start Messy: Art, Business, and Embracing Creativity

Valerie Friedlander 0:00
Hello, my friends, and welcome to another episode of Mindset Unlimited: Mindset Tips, Tools, and Inspiration for Women in a Time of Change. I’m your host, Valerie Friedlander, Certified Leadership Coach, Sociologist, Intersectional Feminist, Artist, Mom, and Nerd. And today we are talking about art, business, and embracing creativity. And I am so excited to introduce you all to my friend Stephanie Graham. Stephanie is a Chicago-based artist and filmmaker working across photography, film, and creative direction. Her work explores Black intimacy, joy, relationships, culture, and the ways people perform and understand themselves in the world. She is especially interested in creating images, films, and archives that document the people and stories that might otherwise go unnoticed. Her projects include “Love You Bro, “The Black Kid Table, “So This One Guy, and “Hashtag New Global Matriarchy. Stephanie is also the host and creator of Nosy AF, a podcast about what artists and changemakers actually do, where curiosity and asking better questions are part of the practice. Across her work, she is interested in intimacy over spectacle and in making space for people to be seen, heard, and remembered. At the center of it all, Stephanie is an artist who is curious about people and what happens when you pay close attention. I think from her bio, you all can probably see why I think she’s so fantastic, and I can’t wait to share this episode with you. Some of what we’re talking about are resisting perfectionism and starting messy, creating spaces to connect, the ripple impact of following your curiosity, and idea overwhelm and growth mindset, and so much more. I just I can’t wait for you to meet her. So without further ado, let’s get started.

Valerie Friedlander 2:09
Hello, Stephanie. I’m so excited to have you on Mindset Unlimited today.

Stephanie Graham 2:13
Yes, me too, Valerie. I’m so excited to be here. Big fan of the show.

Valerie Friedlander 2:18
Oh, likewise, I love yours too, so I am really. I’ve been meaning to have you on for a while now, and of course, this season gave me a real excuse to make sure that I made that happen. We are in a podcast collective together, so we’ve known each other for a bit, and yes, I just think you’re amazing.

Stephanie Graham 2:38
Oh my gosh!

Valerie Friedlander 2:39
And so, I would like to give you some space to introduce yourself to everybody listening.

Stephanie Graham 2:45
Yes, thank you. And the feeling is mutual. Please know, Valerie. I think you’re amazing as well. But hi, everybody. I am Stephanie Graham. I am in Chicago on the South Side. I am a filmmaker, artist, and I also have a podcast, and I really think that you know I say that I make photos, films, and spaces, and I’m also a big Housewives fan.

Valerie Friedlander 3:12
So yeah, so curious, little side tangent. What is it that you like about the Real Housewives?

Stephanie Graham 3:20
Okay, so the housewives have certainly evolved since me coming to them, but when they first came on, and this is something I still hold on to, they were women of a certain age, just always into something. You got to see them run businesses, run their family. You know, I thought it was interesting how these were wealthy women, but you know they were allowing camera crews into their house, into their businesses, into their marriages and dating lives, and I just loved that. You know, I love the glitz and glamor, and also they would get into arguments about like etiquette, which I also was like, you know what? These are things to actually be upset about. For example, if I invite you to my house and you say you’re coming and you show up with like one or two more people, I didn’t expect them. You know, now it’s a problem. What if I don’t have enough? So, yeah, I really, I really like those ladies.

Valerie Friedlander 4:12
Yeah, yeah. It’s it’s been of interest. So I’ve never gotten into the Real Housewives, but I always love the commentary about them. Like as a sociologist, like the discussions of the different dynamics of society and how we operate, and how like wellness and and mental health and like all of those things seem to come through that show. So I always like to learn about what people are taking away from it, what they get out of it. Why they like it? Also, the glitz and glam. Like I think in a previous life, I would have been a magpie because I just love shiny things.

Stephanie Graham 4:48
Oh yeah,

Valerie Friedlander 4:49
That’s my squirrel.

Stephanie Graham 4:50
Oh yeah, definitely. Me too. I love, I love, I love, I love bling. I mean, even now, like I’ll never shut it down. Like I get why people love all those things, you know, because I’m right there. With them and yeah, I think that’s why people do like it too, as the whole discussion, you know, behind it with the class dynamics and all those things. So yeah, I think it’s a very smart project when you come at it through that lens.

Valerie Friedlander 5:16
Yeah, yeah. Well, and particularly curious, just as a as an artist, you know, like and a film artist at that, like the the way we view things. Take you know, there’s a certain understanding of the world. So before we get into like your art necessarily, I one of the things I like to ask is what is a an unconscious limit that you had that you have unlearned.

Stephanie Graham 5:44
Oh my gosh! You know, and I still think I am unlearning it, unlearning this. But the whole like do it dirty, do it messy kind of a thing, just to get you started. I used to think, especially working in the film industry, everything in the film industry is, you know, a lot of money is being spent, and everything looks perfect to get the achieved look. And I was bringing that into my own practice, you know, and it’s like I did not have $50,000 to do this set, you know, like, or a team of, you know, a dozen or more, 20 or more. Like, it is just me, and so I would try to wait until things got perfect enough to share things. You know, or even like where we’re at now, like just at my studio. Like, oh my God, do I have to make a whole set? And I would not do things until it got, you know, perfect. But I’m like, I need to stop that because maybe I wouldn’t have any money or I wasn’t working, and so I might not have the resources to be able to do what I want to do. And so I’m just not doing it, and then I’m not doing anything, feeling bad about myself because I’m not doing anything. But it’s like if I took that out of it and just started with something, you know. That’s good. Then I’m actually starting, and I can just build on it. So definitely learning the do it messy, just get started. You know that has been something that I have learned, and I continue to learn when I do find myself stuck again. Like, what is keeping me stuck? Oh yeah, I think that this should be, you know, perfect, or this should be absolutely beautiful, and I should have all this, all this, and it’s like, no, let’s just start, and then see. And when you start, you know, I think in this in this space, I’m particularly talking about like projects. You will get information from that. You know, I had this series I was doing. It was called “So This One Guy, and I was interviewing women about you know dates that they had been on, and that I was trying to wait until I had a certain amount. But I was encouraged to just start putting them out there. You know, and from that I got feedback. I got other, you know, folks to interview, and so yeah, when you just put stuff out there, that’s amazing. And then I even had one time I did this series, the same series. So this one guy, where I was interviewing another group of women, and I had, you know, a little a small film crew helping me, and I did see someone say like, “Oh, dang! Okay, you got a film crew now, and it’s like, “Yeah, but so I think that that was sort of cool for people to be able to see that progression also. So, yeah, definitely just starting and getting it, getting the party started on it is something I, you know, have unlearned.

Valerie Friedlander 8:36
Yeah, yeah, that perfectionism is such a way that we freeze up, and I think that we’ve learned that in a lot of ways, societally, to keep us from doing things that are creative, yeah, and thinking about things, and it’s I think it’s a draw that people have towards AI, as an example. I see that as like I want to get it right. Of course, we know that AI doesn’t get everything right either. Certainly not. It’s the the creative process, and I love that you said just get started because that’s one of the places in my own creativity that I often get hung up on. As I’ll watch the videos of how to do something. Oh yeah, like oh that’s so cool. I want to be able to do that, but something in me is like, well, you know, it’s not going to look like that when you do it, and then I’m like, oh, it feels safer just to watch other people do it and not actually do it, because then I can stay in the fantasy of what I could do instead of what it actually looks like. But that’s not fulfilling,

Stephanie Graham 9:37
No, and it’s not helpful.

Valerie Friedlander 9:41
No, no, and I love that that iterative process, right? That that we learn as we go, and that it’s okay to learn as we go. I think that’s so important. You feel like there’s a a particular place that. Your that that like really has been particularly important for you in your own growth as an artist. Where like I know you gave an example just now of a particular piece that you did where that was a good affirmation of like when I when you get started is or is there a place where you’re like this has helped you maybe personally or in your business or work like how you are growing that like really stands out of like if I hadn’t allowed this to happen then this wouldn’t have happened.

Stephanie Graham 10:39
Yeah, I think something personally is just like having friends over. Like I would think again, I need to call the cleaning service to come over here. What are the plates going to be? Do I have floral arrangements? All this stuff that you know I probably get from you know seeing my mother and friends and the housewives set up. But I’m like, man, I can just have like Valerie. You can come over here, and I don’t need to have everything set up. I can just order some pizza. You know, it can be in the box. I don’t have to try to like reset it up. You know, and have some paper plates. Like me trying to gather folks just for fun, having people over, I would oh, I the perfectionism is a big thing for me. But I just started to just have people over, like, oh, if you’re in the area, just come by. When I lived downtown, this is what really broke this for me is because I lived. If you’ve ever visited Chicago, I was in the Gold Coast on the intersection of Oakland State. This is like prime, you know, downtown tourist living, and I would have friends be down there all the time to, you know, do whatever they were doing, and they’d be like, “Oh, are you home? or “Oh, hey, like I brought my parents down here. Do you want to like come meet us? And that whole like trying to make sure I look perfect or anything like that, I just let that go, and I’m like, oh yeah, you know, throw on some jeans and come and meet. It’s like I’m. This is my neighborhood. This is my city. You all are visiting. Like I could be however, you know. And at the point is, I have to just meet up with them, and I’m building relationships. Like they’re not gonna say like, oh my gosh, you look like pristine. Like it’s not. It’s not about that. It’s about the relationship building, you know, and just being able to connect with people, you know, they’re not going to look at, you know, oh dang, she has bad plates, you know. Nobody’s going to say that.

Valerie Friedlander 12:30
Well, and if they do, are those the people you really want to be connecting with?

Stephanie Graham 12:33
Right, right. So yes, like girl, that’s what you’re worried about. Like I’m feeding you, and you’re worried about what a plate looks like. You know.

Valerie Friedlander 12:40
Yeah. Well, and what I’m hearing in that is like what’s important, like to be really centered in like what actually matters here, and you know what am I uplifting as the focal point? Is it that I have everything perfect, that I appear a certain way, or is it that I’m building connections and relationships with people.

Stephanie Graham 13:02
Yeah. Like when I had friends that took the train down with their family, and it’s like, wow, they really want me like to come out and meet their family. That is so nice, you know. If they’re taking that time out, want me to come over and, you know, have a sandwich, have a coffee, whatever. So yeah, definitely, I’ve gotten over that, but I still, you know, I’m human. I’ll get stuck on that stuff still. But yeah, that has just been like thinking about just making the connection has broken a lot of that for me.

Valerie Friedlander 13:32
Yeah, I feel like it’s harder, especially with online stuff and the stuff that we’re consuming. Of either you’re a mess or you’re perfect and. everything looks amazing, and it almost feels like it relates to that erosion of nuance, right? Which is an erosion of our humanity, and I feel like that ties into some of your purpose that you have listed as your artist statement, yeah, and talking about like the perceptions that we have of people, and I love that you talk about like creating spaces where people can connect and grow and expand their understanding of the world. And if we’re not able to be present in the mess, we don’t allow for that that learning to happen, where we can overcome the misunderstandings when we’re judging ourselves, we’re more likely to judge other people. And I’m curious how you feel like your mission ties to like like how how does that feel like it articulates in the world for you?

Stephanie Graham 14:38
You know, I think I just want folks to have a good time and feel welcome, period. You know, in the work I make, even if it might be a question that might be sort of-I can’t think of a example-but like if it’s sort of controversial, like I guess my point, I always. Come through a genuine curiosity about something, and so being able to make folks feel seen and have a space for conversation and a place to go is important. You know.

Valerie Friedlander 15:16
Yeah. One of the things that I learned in one of my trainings was the idea of windows and mirrors?

Stephanie Graham 15:22
Okay.

Valerie Friedlander 15:23
A mirror to me in my lived experience. I see myself in that, and this is a window. I have not been there. This is a window into somebody else’s lived experience that I’m getting to observe and learn about. And I think it was it was used in terms of observing art, and what which pieces of art, and what about these pieces of art are a window for you, and what’s a mirror as it like a form of having a conversation about that art? Because the way you perceive something, what you get out of it is going to be different based off of what you have experienced in your own life, and are you open to seeing through a window, or are you only open to seeing mirrors? Because often mirrors help us feel safe.

Stephanie Graham 16:09
Yeah,

Valerie Friedlander 16:10
Sometimes. I suppose sometimes we have a mirror lifted up, and it’s like, whoa, not me at all. What a that I feel attacked. Yeah, that does happen sometimes. But I’m curious. Like, as someone creating the art, what what do you think about when you’re doing that creation process? Is that something that you’re looking at? Of like, how might someone see this in one way versus another way? Like, I would love for you to share a little bit about your your creative thought process as you’re making things.

Stephanie Graham 16:48
Well, you know, I think when I make anything, I always I feel like I make it for myself. Like, what am I seeing that might be missing, or what is it that I’m curious about that I want to explore more, and so then that’s where I start. I don’t. I don’t think I ever think about. Oh, how will this come off, or what do I want people to learn? I think I notice, for example, a project that I did called “Love You, Bro” is where I photographed black men with their best friends, and you know my own personal experience. I would notice that I personally have a lot of friends in particular friend groups. Like I have like the friends I grew up with, my art friends. You know, my let’s go to the club and look for folks, you know, friends. But if I was seeing guys, they would-they always seem to always have like the one friend that was with them for everything. It was the one friend that was there at law school. It was like when they got a baby, you know, you know, just to go out and meet people. You know, it was always like that one friend. I’m always like so envy. maybe not envious, but I admired that that there was like that one friend that you would go around with, where I always seem to have cliques of friends that I would be with, and so I was like, you know, and I also noticed I’m like, we don’t really ever big this up enough about you know black men as friends or black man love like platonic love in that way and so I just wanted to find a way to celebrate it myself. That was something I noticed and I wanted to talk about. I wasn’t like, well, maybe this will make folks look at black men and say, I wonder if he has a best a best friend, you know, or you know, I wonder how they view friendship. You know, it was just something I thought was a good thing to create because I personally had observed that. So a lot of it comes from, I think, personal observation more so than how other people will perceive it or what they will learn from it. You know.

Valerie Friedlander 19:00
have you ever been surprised by what somebody learned from it, or maybe affirmed, or had that kind of feedback? Because I know that’s one of the things with art is like you have your thoughts when you’re putting it together, but then art is also in the consumption of it and like what people get out of it or how they interpret it, and then what they do from it. It’s this kind of growing process. So anything that like you can think of where you were like, “Oh, that’s interesting.

Stephanie Graham 19:28
You know, the one thing that came up was a series I did. Gosh, I cannot remember the name of the series, but the point of it was I was posting all of these. It was sort of like a Facebook Instagram series I was doing, where I was posting all of the black women who were interracial relationships, because at the time when this was coming up, they were like, “Oh, you know, I think it was like black women were.” The biggest group who were unmarried, and there was discussion around, you know, who is gonna love the black woman, right? You know, everybody single. They’re very, you know, we’re very highly educated. Who who gets with, you know, our black women? And so I’m like, lots of people get with black women, you know, and if it’s not black men, you know, these other men will. And so I started posting, you know, interracial couples every day for a month, and that got people sort of talking about you know interracial relationships, but to answer your question, I went to a bar one night and a white gentleman came up to me and he’s like, you know, I’ve been watching, you know, seeing these posts, and it made him think of an Indian girl who he liked in high school, and how it never occurred to him to invite her to the prom. He’s like, I don’t know why. I think nobody else was dating interracially, and so I didn’t want to be the first. But you know, he’s like, you know, to be honest, we had a lot in common. You know, we always laughed. You know, we would hang out and stuff, and I never thought to really pursue that relationship, and I should have, you know. And I’m like, wow. Well, dang, what’s she doing now? He’s like, I don’t know. But that surprised me, just like how I think, especially with social media, you know, or anything that we put out, you know, you know, you don’t ever see who’s paying attention. You know, I would see that from you know black men, you know, commenting about this or being like, “Dang, this person too, or people like, “Dang, they’re married to a sister. This person, this person, you know. And I didn’t think that like this random white guy at you know a photographer networking group would have such a thought and start to think about, you know, a young lady back in his high school years that he probably should have, you know, romantically pursued. You know, and he was sitting with that, like, why didn’t I do that? You know, like peer pressure, or he didn’t think it it was a thing, or you know, and just thinking to himself, who knows what his reason was, but he did not. You know.

Valerie Friedlander 22:25
Yeah, yeah, but yeah. Well, that’s. I mean, Harley wants to be like good for him for grappling with that. You know, a lot of times people don’t sit with those places of like, huh? What is that? Like, what did I carry, and then what am I still carrying that maybe I hadn’t paid attention to? And it’s one of those issues that I see a lot in in the way social media works is that we get stuck in these similar circles of thought, and we’re not challenged. Yeah, and again, I’m not not in terms of like the challenge. I think we’ve we’ve gotten into such a state where it’s like to be challenged to challenging my humanity, right? Like it’s not. It’s like the really intent, not just a a perspective shift in terms of like, huh, I made this choice. Why didn’t I make that choice? And like, how are people represented? And how are we thinking about each other and all those sorts of things-it’s like it’s very volatile.

Stephanie Graham 23:25
Oh yeah, people will fight you going to the grocery store. I mean, yeah, people are. Everybody needs to calm down. You know, everybody is definitely on edge.

Valerie Friedlander 23:34
Yeah. Well, and you mentioned the idea of creating spaces. What what does that look like or mean to you when you talk about like wanting to create spaces.

Stephanie Graham 23:45
I think wanting you know places for folks to go and have a good time and just relax and step out the house, or even if it’s virtually, you know, like people need things to do. People want to connect, you know, and I think I was reading, was it Anne Friedlander’s newsletter? I think so. And there was something she said in there that everybody wants to be invited, but nobody wants to do the inviting. And I think that that’s true, you know, because it does take. It is a vulnerable space to be in to make something for folks to come up with, I mean, I’m sure you know this. You know, with your business, like you know, you have these different offers, and you know, we launch things and all this stuff. And you’re like, dang, you know, you’re not coming to this, like, but you want this. You know, you talk about your need for this, and then you’re the one, you know, if you created something and it has a low attendance rate or whatever, you’re the one that people judge, and it’s like, well, dang, you know. So yeah, it is a big deal to be the person who is doing the inviting, but I do know that it is still important. People want to have space to show up, and I personally want to have space to show up. So, you know, even even when my podcast. You know, one of the big parts of me starting it, you know, when I did a few years ago, was because I wasn’t seeing the artists I was interested in being interviewed. You know, like even if on YouTube, if I would look them up, like, oh, let me see, oh, Valerie Friedlander, let me look and see where Valerie spoke, and let me see how they, you know, think about, you know, transformative conflict. For you know, example, you know, if I don’t see that, it’s like, well, wow, how am I supposed to get your perspective? And so I feel like me starting it again was because I had questions about art and particular artists and their thoughts, and you know, a podcast was a good way for me to do that. So that makes a space. You know, again, having people over for pizza that makes a space. You know, club promoters they make spaces. You know, for people to come and enjoy themselves. So, yeah, I think so much of the the work is coming from like what I want to see.

Valerie Friedlander 26:02
Yeah.

Stephanie Graham 26:02
Be the change you want to see

Valerie Friedlander 26:03
Be the change you want to see in the world. Absolutely.

Stephanie Graham 26:07
Yeah,

Valerie Friedlander 26:07
And and that that is a wonderful way. I mean, obviously, my opinion. We all need spaces, and we need those spaces of belonging. And I think there’s a that a lot of fear that it’s not. I’m not gonna be long. I’m not gonna be welcome. I’m not gonna be safe. Yeah, in a space, and so that desire to have people invite you and say, “Yes, you belong here. Yes, I want you here to

Stephanie Graham 26:34
yeah

Valerie Friedlander 26:34
be in this space, is is really helpful. But also inviting people, and then that sense of rejection,

Stephanie Graham 26:42
yeah,

Valerie Friedlander 26:43
is really hard. Right, coming to my space.

Stephanie Graham 26:49
I know. I was on a call early this morning, and a young lady was like making a. She had a sketch class. It was like a free sketch class. You can come to, you can doodle. She’ll help you improve it if you want. Just like if you’re on the phone and you doodle anything, and it was amount. It was like at a local coffee shop, your ticket included coffee and a snack. I’m like, this sounds perfect. She didn’t have any ticket sales for it, and so we were brainstorming, figuring out you know ways that you can get stuff, but yeah, people are making such cool things, and sometimes it does make me think. As I was listening to you, it does make me think about like in high school how they had like the jock table and the god kid table, like those were all spaces. And if you were new, you can identify where you could go. You know, Some some presents such as like jocks or goths those are like more visibly identifiable you know versus like maybe like you know the craft girls that just like to make crafts all the time you might not be able to notice them right away but yeah I think spaces are important you know.

Valerie Friedlander 27:59
Yeah well and again, that that like I want to create a space. Are people coming? And there’s that that message that we get from you know the movies and whatnot. If you build it, they will come.

Stephanie Graham 28:13
Yeah, man, that is a that’s a lie.

Valerie Friedlander 28:15
It is not true.

Stephanie Graham 28:17
That is a lie.

Valerie Friedlander 28:18
I’ve built so many things and had very few people come, and a lot of people who are like, “This is amazing, but I think we’re so inundated, and we’re so on edge, we’re so nervous about each other, and we’re so rushed to do everything. It’s like there’s so many things coming at us. It’s like there’s no time to even figure out what it is that’s important, and that was one of the things that you know we just talked about is that idea of knowing what’s important here.

Stephanie Graham 28:49
Yeah,

Valerie Friedlander 28:49
and so I’m constantly encouraging slow down. Yeah, pause. What what matters? Like just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should do it. Doesn’t mean that it’s a good fit for you.

Stephanie Graham 29:03
Yeah,

Valerie Friedlander 29:04
and and so that discernment of like what actually makes sense for me,

Stephanie Graham 29:11
yeah,

Valerie Friedlander 29:12
is really important. So I actually so to to that one of the things that I wanted to make sure we talked about because you just did a really cool project in your your podcast, Nosy AF, by the way, y’all. The link will be in the show notes. You should definitely check it out. Thank you. You did 31 days of black businesses and interviewed all different industries too. Like you had people from all over, and so that was a beautiful space that you was. Thank you to grow from and learn from and share with people. And I’m I’m curious, like what you took away from that experience.

Stephanie Graham 29:57
Yeah, what I took away. So the project. Was yeah, I interviewed. I ended. I think it was ended up getting 33 business owners to talk about their business. You had to be black, and you had to have a business. And I think what I got from that was so many things. I got from it that, you know, business is hard, but it is a rewarding thing. It is a very cool thing to do. I got a little bit of a business model where I was noticing a thread of folks maybe doing the corporate business for a minute, like working in corporate, and then being like, you know what, I’m ready to do something on my own, and that being amazing because you know, if you had a really good paying corporate job, which some of the folks I talked to seemed like they did, you know, you had capital, you know, to sort of start your business, but also still, even while having your own business, that folks still have jobs. Like there is a spectrum. I know Amelia Ruby speaks about this with the podcast Off the Grid about having a self employment is a spectrum. And man, is that true? There’s people who are doing these businesses while also having a full time job. So it might be there. I don’t even want to say side hustles because they’re packed with referrals. Also, the power of referrals. So many folks I spoke to had just referral referral customers, which is so impressive. You know, a lot of business owners had referral customers, and so I feel like a big takeaway was just the admiration for how folks are doing business and all the different ways that business can be done, and the longevity-you know-that people stick with it. You know, I don’t know if stick-with-itness is a word, but I’ve heard people say it.

Valerie Friedlander 31:56
It can be. We we can say it is.

Stephanie Graham 31:59
Yeah, let’s say it is. I feel like once you start, you can’t just be like, “Oh, in six months, you know, this isn’t working, so let me. No, you know, folks have been in this like even six months, you know, a year. Like you have to stick with it and commit to it for a minute to be able to see a return. So that is important and something that I took away with it. I took away even with my project, you know. You know now you know Nosy has had like I feel like 150 episodes at this point. You know that is sticking with it. If I would have been like, oh, you know, 10 people listening, oh, I’m done with this. Like, no, you know you gotta, you know, commit to stuff, and I think a lot of artists, you know, they just commit to stuff. So I would also see the ties of how close art and business is together, you know, for sure. Like business owners can be seen as artists in that sense, you know, about the marketing, the experimentation in marketing or experimentation in, you know, what you’re offering to people-it’s all an experiment. You know, you see a need, and you’re going to see if you can fulfill, you know, the space to have an answer to fulfill that that need.

Valerie Friedlander 33:15
Yeah. Well, the the experiments, the curiosity. I mean, it all. That’s why I loved when you initiated the conversation around perfectionism because that is one of the biggest things that I see that keeps people from doing something or derails them or you know they they the stick with itness and and also that idea that that you know just because I’m sticking with it doesn’t mean it has to look exactly the same, right? Right, like it can change. That doesn’t mean that I’m abandoning what is important to me. I’m still holding on to what’s important to me while recognizing that the ways that it needs to operate within the world needs to change. When we stay rigid, like you can stick with it without being rigid. Yes, absolutely.

Stephanie Graham 34:03
Yes, absolutely. Yeah, and just like I think too, just like how you can make a business out of anything. I learned that too. You know, just folks doing stuff that I just would never even think to have a business in.

Valerie Friedlander 34:17
Like what?

Stephanie Graham 34:18
You know, one of the folks that came to mind as soon as I said that was Tassina Williams, who has creativity parties and events, and she started that business based off of how I believe if she listened, sorry if it’s wrong, but just how someone was just stressed out needed to start a baby shower, so she started. You know, she’s like, oh, I have nothing really going on. I’ll help you. I like to do this stuff, and making candy tables, like a table where you can go and make your candy bag. You know, these are like really fun things, and really making an event, even having folks come to your house, making that an event and having things going on. You know that really. Surprised me. I would never have thought to just start a business just based off of something that, like a cousin, was saying, “Oh, I need someone to help me plan my baby shower. Be like, you know what? Now this can be a business. I’ve done this for two cousins. You know, let me see if I can, you know, do this for more. That was one that came to mind. You know, I’m trying to think others. We’ll go with that one just for sake of time. But, but yeah, I feel like, you know, just hearing folks, you know, I was listening on that same call I was on earlier. You know, folks were talking about how there’s not really a lot of places for in the UK for them to place classifieds about their newsletter or about their newsletters or offerings. I’m like, do I need to make a UK newsletter? You know, it’s just like trying to figure out these ways. And but the people will actually act on it. You know, folks will act on it, and seeing how many folks like, for another example, monochromatic mommies, Sabrina Bonaparte. It was a mom group for children with, you know, children on the autism spectrum or neurodivergent children, you know, and that started because she was a parent to an autistic child, and she’s like, “Hey, does anybody know about this? I’m going to start this. You know, you have seven people, then you have 14, then you have 21, then you have 60, because people need that community, and that started as her just needing somebody wanting her own friend group, you know. Now they have chapters, so I feel like things like that, where you’re like, they don’t necessarily wake up and be like, “Oh, let me start a, you know, mom group or parent group, you know. Definitely like coming from your own perspective and what you just see, and it sounds like also sometimes you’ll just fall into business too.

Valerie Friedlander 36:42
Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean that that reminds me of what you were just saying about your art and going. I’m curious about this. I want to do something with this, and that is one way that people start businesses. Though I have also seen it happen where people start a business to fulfill something, and as they’re doing business, they’re like, why isn’t this a thing that is there? Yeah, maybe that’s what I need to be doing because that actually seems like really interesting, and that’s where I want. You know what? I want the thing that I started the business to do to be something that I just give. That’s a gift, and this other thing is the thing to make money at, and that’s one of the challenges that I have as somebody who’s very multi-passionate. I love doing lots of different things. Is like I could I could make money doing this. I could make money. There’s so many things, and it’s like, well, what is what are the things that are things that I do because I love them because they’re important to me, and what are the things that I do to make money and to be able to survive in the world that we live in currently, like what does that look like in that discernment process?

Stephanie Graham 37:50
Yeah, and that could be overwhelming too because it could still also be so many things.

Valerie Friedlander 37:55
Yes,

Stephanie Graham 37:56
that you do.

Valerie Friedlander 37:56
Yeah, yeah, but you don’t know unless you try.

Stephanie Graham 38:01
Yup, you got to start. Yeah,

Valerie Friedlander 38:03
and just start and start messy,

Stephanie Graham 38:05
right?

Valerie Friedlander 38:06
See what happens?

Stephanie Graham 38:07
Yeah, because you can say like, “Oh, I’m gonna start. You know, “Oh, my neighbor needs help with their lawn. Let me cut their lawn. Then they’ll pass on your name, and now you have like a dozen lawn folks. Like, you know, now what are you gonna just keep doing? These 12 people and cap it a thet, or are you gonna try this and see what happens? You know, and you can always stop. You can always say, you know what, I have 50 customers, or I’m cutting their lawn. This is actually too much. I’m gonna cut back and just go back to the folks in my neighborhood and leave it at that. You know, just use it for you know dinner, dinner money or whatever.

Valerie Friedlander 38:39
Yeah, that’s what I did with face painting, like I don’t need to make this into a thing, but it’s fun. So, like, if people say, “Hey, can you do this? I’m like, “Yeah, I can do that.

Stephanie Graham 38:49
That’s so cool that you do that. Do you still do it? If people ask you?

Valerie Friedlander 38:52
Yeah.

Stephanie Graham 38:52
Oh, I love it! I love it!

Valerie Friedlander 38:54
Yeah.

Stephanie Graham 38:54
Oh my god, that’s so fun.

Valerie Friedlander 38:56
It’s fun for me. It’s the different things that occupy my brain differently. Yeah. Right. Like when I’m coaching, that’s a certain way I show up, and the cognitive, emotional, like presence, that sort of thing. Whereas face painting, it’s like very present, but I’m not like there’s not a lot of interaction per se. I’m just doing, I’m just creating something, yeah, and then I’m done. It’s also a different way of interacting with children, right? Like I’m not trying to like parent or help them do something. I am, I am act. I’m keeping them engaged by doing something that I enjoy, and then they go away.

Stephanie Graham 39:37
They go away, and they’ll let you do it too

Valerie Friedlander 39:39
until my canvas walks off.

Stephanie Graham 39:41
Yup, yup, and they’re excited. You know, they sit there and they’ll let you just do, you know, do your thing. You know, which I I love that. You know, I love seeing that.

Valerie Friedlander 39:49
Yeah, yeah, it’s fun. Well, and I also had to, you know, talking about like the perception of of things. I had to learn that, like, because I’ll hold the mirror up and they’ll look at themselves, and I. I’m looking for the like. He’s so excited, yo! I love it. You know that always. I feel so good. And then I realize that some of the kids are like, okay. And then they go in. I’m like, oh, do they hate it? Are they? And I realize some of them think that they they’re afraid to move their face.

Stephanie Graham 40:15
Oh,

Valerie Friedlander 40:16
Right. It’s not that they don’t like it. They’re very happy with it, but they don’t, and and because they love it, they don’t want to smile or do anything that’s gonna ruin it. Yeah, even though it won’t ruin them, but like they’re afraid that it’ll ruin it. I had to realize, oh, that’s my my judgment, my assumption,

Stephanie Graham 40:33
sure

Valerie Friedlander 40:34
about them,

Stephanie Graham 40:36
yeah,

Valerie Friedlander 40:37
that I have to take a look at of like, oh, that’s that. That’s just an interpretation. It’s not necessarily the truth,

Stephanie Graham 40:44
right. Yeah,

Valerie Friedlander 40:46
Yeah.

Stephanie Graham 40:46
I’m sure they think they look great. They have like you know. I just our union had a picnic where they had the kids getting face paint, and they were like all walking around like beautiful little cats. And I’m like, I could imagine they were like, “Wow, I really look like a cat.

Valerie Friedlander 41:00
Yeah. No. So I mean, I’ve I’ve had I’ve had ones where I was like, oh, I didn’t that that didn’t come out as well as I would have liked, and they are thrilled. So like, you know, oh my god, it’s all good. But yeah, it’s but knowing what’s what’s your thing, you know, like what, and and then it can change, and it doesn’t have to look a particular way. It doesn’t have to look perfect for it to be what fits you, right?

Stephanie Graham 41:29
Yeah, and being cool with it changing gives people aren’t like, “Well, I thought you were, you know, cutting lawns and this and that. You stopped your business. Like, no, I just pivoted, and you know, and that’s it. You know, and there’s no shame in that deciding to stop something. You know.

Valerie Friedlander 41:44
yeah, yeah. That’s I think that’s so important.

Stephanie Graham 41:48
Yeah.

Valerie Friedlander 41:48
So this has been amazing.

Stephanie Graham 41:51
Yeah. Thank you so much.

Valerie Friedlander 41:52
I I needed this conversation because there are places where I’m seeing my own perfectionism show up, and like you should just do the and like it’s one thing to know it; it’s another thing to hear people say it. I think that’s one of the beautiful things with podcasts is that, like, even if you already know, it’s still hearing somebody else validate that and say, “Yeah, yeah, it’s okay. Just, just start. Just, just do the thing. Like, so many more people that that you don’t even realize have a similar experience. Like it might not be exactly the same, but like so. So for everybody listening, if you are looking for some validation about business and like navigating, definitely go check that series out. Because

Stephanie Graham 42:37
Yes! Please, yeah. There’s so many stories of you know advice and wisdom, and you know, sharing challenges. You know, there was a woman, Nadia Anderson of Lavender Hill, which is a, I believe, maybe is it 1938 home? I could be wrong on that, but it’s this beautiful home in Virginia, and she wanted to create a space for people to come to to host their events. That’s not their home, you know. But it’s this beautiful house you can host. And after she got it, you know, they’re changing up the zoning on her. So like, she’s had you know parking stripes painted and put in a fence and all this kind of stuff. And now they want to change it yet again. And it’s like you know these are small business owners that don’t you know the capital for all that kind of stuff is just such a challenge. So yeah, I’m saying all that to say that there’s just like a breadth of conversations there where you can definitely learn learn from, you know, and agree with as well. You could see yourself in these conversations as well.

Valerie Friedlander 43:37
Well, and I want to thank you for being nosy.

Stephanie Graham 43:40
Oh, thank you!

Valerie Friedlander 43:41
I and validating and encouraging and being an example of being nosy because I think when we think we should already know, we don’t ask questions that we need to be asking.

Stephanie Graham 43:52
Right.

Valerie Friedlander 43:52
So that idea, we don’t want to be nosy. Well, nosy is being curious. That’s part of how we learn.

Stephanie Graham 44:00
It is, and that’s how you get the information too. Like, yeah, sometimes you can get the tea, but it’s like, and and even in my industry, like film, when you want to know who who to work with and stuff, you want to know for information so you know what you’re walking into. You know, it’s helpful to know because you’re you know with these people all day every day, like knowing that somebody is going through a divorce, yeah, that’s terrible, and I guess you could perceive that as gossip. But it also helps to know like why they might be short, or you know what could be also going on, like you know. So it’s it’s information, you know. It’s not it’s not gossip,

Valerie Friedlander 44:37
Yeah. Well, unless you’re calling them names and judging them,

Stephanie Graham 44:41
Yeah. Unless you’re like, oh wow, they got a divorce. Yeah, I knew they would. You know that’s gossip and not nice. But if you’re like, that explains why they’re marching around this office,

Valerie Friedlander 44:50
Right? Yeah. Now I can have a little bit of compassion more than I might have naturally. Yes, we want to be more compassionate in general, but it’s hard. Times if we don’t know what we got all different stuff going on, but yeah, it helps to be able to to hold space for that when you know that there’s a thing happening.

Stephanie Graham 45:10
Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah.

Valerie Friedlander 45:12
So thank you.

Stephanie Graham 45:13
Yeah. No. And thank you. Thank you for the work you’re doing.

Valerie Friedlander 45:16
Thanks. I appreciate that.

Stephanie Graham 45:18
Yeah. Yeah.

Valerie Friedlander 45:19
I would love for you to share where people can find out more about you and follow you and all of that.

Stephanie Graham 45:28
Yeah, so my podcast is called Nosy AF Conversations about Art Activism and Social Change. nosyaf.com will get you there and all the links to subscribe to your favorite podcast player, and then it’s like wherever you listen to podcasts, it is probably there as well. It’s on all the majors, and then my arts. If you are interested to see what I have, it is misgram.com, m i s s g r a h a m.com, like Graham cracker, and yeah, Instagram. I’m on Stephanie Graham, and then the show is Nosy AF Pod, and we’re trying. I’m trying to post there more, but it is so hard, y’all. I mean,

Valerie Friedlander 46:09
I I really drifted away from social media for a while because we just got overwhelmed. I was like,

Stephanie Graham 46:14
Yeah, it is overwhelming. Content is overwhelming.

Stephanie Graham 46:17
It’s more important to put my stuff out than to put it on, like to be on social, like what’s more important?

Stephanie Graham 46:23
And that was some, yeah. When you were talking about like you know overwhelming stuff, I was thinking about that. Like content is just overwhelming. You know, I I have to pause myself all the time. Like, do I actually need to read this? Like, do I need to watch this? You know, can I take a break? Like, what have I been doing? It’s like what you tell your kids. You know, like how long have the next set up? Set it down.

Valerie Friedlander 46:43
Get off the screen.

Stephanie Graham 46:45
Exactly. Exactly. Go outside now. Out. Out. Out.

Stephanie Graham 46:48
Yeah. Yeah. I love it. So all the links will be in the show notes as well. So it’s easy to find. And yes. So I’d like to wrap up with a couple questions. Which one is, what does it mean to you to be unlimited?

Stephanie Graham 47:04
Ooh, to be unlimited, knowing that you can really do anything, and you really can. You really can do anything that you put your mind to. You just got to try. You know, you can do anything that you try, and I feel like just trying is about being unlimited. Like there’s no nothing holding you back, you know. That’s what it means to me to be unlimited. It’s just going out there doing the thing,

Valerie Friedlander 47:29
Just doing your thing. Yeah, life’s a journey, right? Just doing your journey, right? The point,

Stephanie Graham 47:34
Yeah. And don’t worry, nothing’s forever, you know. So just you know, keep going until you don’t want to do it anymore, and that’s perfect. You know.

Valerie Friedlander 47:43
Yeah. And when you want to evoke that unlimited feeling, what song do you listen to?

Valerie Friedlander 47:52
Okay, anything by Three 6 Mafia. Choose You is a good one, and this is sort of a other funny song that I love is “Cheese and Dope” by Project Pat. It just has a really good like raw kind of a beat. You’re like, yeah, I’m gonna take this over. So those songs, 3 Six Mafia, and then Project Pat’s Cheese and Dope.

Valerie Friedlander 48:17
Awesome. I mean, I like cheese.

Stephanie Graham 48:19
Yes. So, oh, who doesn’t? You know, I don’t. I’m not. I’m not. Nobody do dope, okay? But cheese, all of it,

Valerie Friedlander 48:29
All all the cheese.

Stephanie Graham 48:31
Yes,

Valerie Friedlander 48:32
Amazing. I love it and cheesy. Like I, I like dad jokes, so I’ll take all the cheesy.

Stephanie Graham 48:37
Oh yeah, cheesy. Oh, absolutely, absolutely. I will take a dad joke any minute, any minute. Yeah.

Valerie Friedlander 48:44
I love it. Thank you so much, Stephanie, for joining me.

Stephanie Graham 48:47
Oh my gosh, thank you so much, Valerie. Thank you so much for having me, and thank you so much for the work that you are doing. It is it’s so wonderful to have you know you out here helping us navigate like changes and decisions, and sort of release these things that are on us because so much is on us, even when we don’t realize it. It is-it’s a big deal the work that you do. So you know, folks can’t afford to work with you. At least we have your show, we have your platform. So thank you.

Valerie Friedlander 49:17
Thank you so much. That means a lot. Yeah, really appreciate it.

Stephanie Graham 49:20
Yeah, yeah, I really appreciate you.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai