Creating Change through Joy for Greater Ease

Valerie Friedlander 0:08
Valerie, hello everyone. I’m Valerie Friedlander, and welcome to mindset Unlimited, mindset tips, tools and inspiration for women in a time of change. I’m your host. I am a certified leadership coach, sociologist, mom, intersectional feminist, artist and nerd, and today we are talking about creating change through joy for greater ease. And my guest is Heather Vickery, welcome,

Heather Vickery 0:39
hello.

Valerie Friedlander 0:40
I’m so excited to chat with you. I mean, we, we met ages ago, ages

Heather Vickery 0:45
it feels like several lifetimes ago at this point, like so many things have changed since we met. It’s been like 10 years. So,

Valerie Friedlander 0:54
yeah, yeah. So we’ve been in the same space, working on similar things, but very parallel. And so I’m really excited about the opportunity to kind of look at some of these intersections. My focus this season is on mission driven Chicago women. And so I’m going to read your bio for everybody so that they know a little bit about you. Heather Vickery helps people go from pressure filled lives to pleasurable ones so they can be successful with ease holding more and feeling like they carry less. As a renowned transformation coach, certified Human Design Guide and board certified NLP practitioner, Heather leverages two decades of entrepreneurial and leadership experience to help women and queer folks lead from embodied joy. She helps clients unwire all the stories society has laid on them so they can lead authentically and love their life. As a respected author, keynote speaker, Broadway, producer and global podcast host Heather champions everyday bravery and self empowerment worldwide. She’s also the executive producer and co host of the award nominated podcast, “Was it Chance?” The show about taking intentional risk for creative success. So fun.

Heather Vickery 2:14
It’s fun to hear that. I was like, well, she could have shortened it, but no, it’s really

Valerie Friedlander 2:18
no see I and I think the way we introduce ourselves, or the way we talk about ourselves, it says something too, but it’s I hear you like hearing ourselves spoken about has a different resonance. I actually, I want to encourage everybody listening do something like that, like write out something about yourself, and then have somebody else speak it, like, write your accomplishments down, write the things that you’ve you’ve done that, like how somebody might introduce you, and then actually listen to somebody do that. Because I think that’s a really powerful exercise.

Heather Vickery 2:56
Yeah, I think it’s very cool. And there are in my experience, from myself and with clients, there are kind of two reactions. One is like, wow, she sounds cool. I want to know her. Like, wait, that’s me. And the other one is, oh, my god, oh my god. I can’t believe I bragged about myself like that. I can’t believe I said all those things about myself. What are people going to think of me?

Valerie Friedlander 3:15
Yeah, yeah. Well, and that has so many different layers too out of the programming of how we’re supposed like being humble, being demure.

Heather Vickery 3:26
Yeah.

Valerie Friedlander 3:27
Right.

Heather Vickery 3:28
Can I curse on your podcast, Valerie?

Valerie Friedlander 3:30
Um.

Heather Vickery 3:31
I won’t, if you don’t want me to. So I I’ll have to work at it.

Valerie Friedlander 3:34
But it was so funny because I made it such that people don’t like I don’t really have cursing on the podcast, mostly just because that way I don’t have to like, mark the things that say that, like people can’t listen. Because, you know, I do have a lot of parents listen, and I want, I want them to be able to listen if their kids are around or feel comfortable doing that. And I don’t know how many people actually care about that anymore. But then it also sets up this dynamic for myself, where people, when I do curse, people, like, oh my gosh, Valerie, you cursed. I’m like, but I do.

Heather Vickery 4:11
I’m a big fan of the F word. I was just gonna say F that. Like, F that being humble me, me and kama like, I am not aspiring to be humble. But I have had that experience, and that’s why I bring it up. Like hearing you read it, the first thought is, gosh, I can’t believe I’m bragging like this with last like half a second, and then I’m like, That’s ridiculous. This is cool. I sound so cool. Oh, my God, that’s actually me. But you have to train yourself to do that.

Valerie Friedlander 4:38
I absolutely that’s one of the things I was just thinking as you were saying that is because it’s so deeply ingrained. Too often people beat themselves up over having that initial impulse like, well, I shouldn’t be ashamed of that, or I shouldn’t be embarrassed. I shouldn’t, you know, and then that, then you have the the programming with the layer of should on it, which makes it shame.

Heather Vickery 4:59
Yeah. A dash of shame on there. Yeah, it’s ridiculous, exactly.

Valerie Friedlander 5:04
So I just thank you for normalizing that experience when when you do have that reaction, and that, I guess, really leads me to one of the early questions that I like to ask is, what is a limit that you took for granted about yourself, about life that you have since unlearned.

Heather Vickery 5:24
So by taking for granted, you mean it was not questioned.

Valerie Friedlander 5:29
You didn’t question. It was like part of the water you were, you’re a fish, and it’s just part of the water.

Heather Vickery 5:34
Gosh, over the course of my 51 years, there have been a lot of them, I think probably the biggest one for me, which is maybe not completely on on track, but is the American Dream, the you’re growing up as a little girl, and you dream about getting married, and it’s going to be a special day, and you’re going to have this perfect husband, and you’re going to have these great Kids. And two point, you know, all of that, and I did it, and I didn’t question anything. I did know. I always know I want to be a mom, and I am. I have four amazing kids, and it never occurred to me that there was a way to have them other than following that path that set forth there. I just didn’t question any of that. And then fast forward to, you know, 2013 I was 38 I had four kids. I hated my life. I hated myself. Couldn’t figure out what was wrong. I had a business that was thriving. We had the prettiest house on the block. We had lots of resources, financial resources. My then husband was a pretty nice guy, like, you know, like, what’s wrong with me? Oh, turns out I’m gay. Hmm, okay, what do I do with that information now? And I I joke, because people are like, how do you get to be 38 and not know it? And the answer to that is very similar to what I just said was, because the way society treat women, treat other women. Oh, my God, she’s so gorgeous, she’s so hot. Oh my god, I love you, and we cuddle and we hold hands and we snuggle and like with our friends, friends, right? I never realized that the way that felt inside my body was different than the way it would feel for straight woman, until I did, and then I’m like, oh, that’s what that is, okay, and I wasn’t going to do anything about it, because I this was what I picked. I picked this path. And then several years later, we hit that moment in 2013 where I was like, this is not sustainable. I can’t I cannot live like this, like it was, if it didn’t actually kill me, it was going to make me so insignificant in my life and in my children’s lives that it might as well have and so I did something about it, which was felt very radical. I came out, I got a divorce, I closed a thriving business, I started a new one, like, you know, I just changed it all. And that doesn’t mean every day is perfect now, but I don’t fight that battle anymore.

Valerie Friedlander 8:10
Yeah, that’s really powerful to say, you know, I could keep going, but like so many people in relationships for variety of reasons. Think they have to keep the relationship together, even though it’s destroying them as individuals. Yeah, and so just want to acknowledge that you did that.

Heather Vickery 8:31
Thank you. I mean, it has been a minute since then.

Valerie Friedlander 8:33
Yeah.

Heather Vickery 8:34
When you have children and you make a decision like that, it never really stops being a prominent factor. And so then to, you know, go back to what we talked about a second ago, is I have had to really work with all of my tools and resources and everything that I do that you mentioned in the bio. I started it as a way to support myself, and then I’m once I know it, and I would not necessarily say, mastered it, but I’ve really embodied it, then I bring it forward to support clients, because I know that it works so well, I have had to use all of those tools and resources daily to keep myself from going in a shame, blame guilt spiral when my kids are challenged, when they’re packing up their things to go back and forth from One house to the other, or when they’re deciding who, you know, the older ones who are out of the house, where are they going to sleep when they come home for a holiday? What if it’s not me? Sometimes it’s not, often it’s not, you know, like, what do I want to make meaning of that? How do I want to manage that, and why that? I think this matters, because I know this is a business focused podcast, is those feelings, those moments show up at work, and how you how I feel about doing my work? Do I feel authentic doing my work, you know, and I have personally chosen to take the approach of being so. Super honest about it, like not every day is great, not everything is easy, but I can move through it because I’ve got the resources to do that, and I can still find what works, what’s good, what’s joyful in it, even if that’s not the only emotion that I’m experiencing.

Valerie Friedlander 10:16
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well. And I, I think that the word authentic often gets used and like, what does that mean or look like? There are so many people who can’t be radically honest when they show up to work. And like, there’s a there’s definitely a power and an I think those of us who can show up that way to do that is important to show that it’s possible to do the things and be fully honest. What does authenticity mean to you?

Heather Vickery 10:59
Yeah, it’s unfortunate that it’s become an almost negative buzzword. I think it’s a great word, and it’s a power play. And for me, authenticity means you get me exactly as I am, no BS and no filters for better or for worse, right? So, yes, I usually show up cursing the book over my shoulder is the book I wrote, and it’s got a curse word in the title. And I show up abundantly queer and supportive. And you know, just someone earlier today who’s liberal and progressive like we are, and all of that was was talking about how, of course, it’s a man, white man, not a straight white man, but a white man, nonetheless, how frustrated he is that Democrats will just get rid of somebody who’s been accused of sexual assaults without Having any facts. Okay, well, often authentically. I return with you know what? I am tired of believing men and thinking women are lying. I now believe women and men have to prove that they’re lying. I’m just gonna switch that script, and I don’t feel sorry about that, and I don’t hide that from my work persona. So that’s what authenticity means for me. It also means my heart has to be in it. I have to be connected. But if you see me, if I’m in space with you, you are guaranteed to get that from me. Otherwise, I will stay home. I would like to read a book instead of do something that feels inauthentic.

Valerie Friedlander 12:36
Yeah, and that’s I think that’s really important personally in the work that we do, that we’re showing up, open and honest, because then people know it’s kind of goes into that coaching agreement, right? Like we’re having that kind of that groundwork creates the psychological safety of, you know, who I am, and what you’re getting, I’m not going to be putting on now. I might put on my coaching hat, right, which I not necessarily going to share all the thoughts that I have. I’m your the client is the focus. And,

Heather Vickery 13:15
yeah,

Valerie Friedlander 13:16
I’m not going to be putting things on, you know, putting on different personas

Heather Vickery 13:21
Right, I’m not gonna surprise you with who I am in this, right? Yeah,

Valerie Friedlander 13:24
yeah, absolutely. The other thing that you said that I was really curious about, you mentioned mastered versus embodied. Well, you didn’t say versus, but you were like, I feel like I’ve necessarily mastered but I’ve embodied it, and that I has some ties, I think, to authenticity. And I’m curious what the difference between those two things are for you in a professional context.

Heather Vickery 13:49
I think that’s a great question, and I thought about it as I was saying it. I don’t have a problem with saying I have mastered something, if I have actually mastered it. I do believe, though, as humans, that we are always learning more and evolving. I’m not sure what mastery means per se, although I have a program called the mind shift mastery, but that’s what I do, right? Like we shift our mind, and that’s what, exactly what I mean by embodied, right? So is there more I could learn? Because there’s always more to learn. Yeah, that answer to that is yes. And I love learning. Catch me listing all of my certifications and all of the ones that I’m still gonna do.

Valerie Friedlander 14:27
We worked hard for those. I mean, that’s one of those things like to say I don’t the whole credentialing thing has some layers to it, of of, you know, our culture and societal stuff, but and, and yes and

Heather Vickery 14:44
yeah,

Valerie Friedlander 14:45
there’s a lot of work that goes into those things too. So there

Heather Vickery 14:48
There is but my point. I but I it’s funny because yes, you are completely right. There’s a lot of cultural and societal pressure on that. And to be fair to myself, that has not been my motivation. And I have never gotten certified in anything because I felt like I needed to prove anything to anybody. I truly only ever did it for my own internal expansion. And then I went, Hmm, how can I best support my clients with this? Again, when I got Human Design certified, I literally was. I had no idea. I saw it on Instagram, which I’m no longer, on any of the meta platforms, but I used to be, and I saw this certification program, and i my i knew, like, my whole body knew, like, Oh, I’m gonna do this. And my brain was like, You’re gonna do what? No, you’re not. You don’t get you don’t know anything about this. You don’t have the time for this, you don’t have the money for that, like, all of it. And I like, nope, gonna do it. Cool. Now I know my human design, and I know what my drive was to do that, so to answer that question, like, I think there’s always just more we can learn, and that’s not a bad thing. I don’t say that as an you’re not an expert. You can’t put yourself out there, you can’t sell your services or your products because you don’t know enough, it just simply means that I do know enough to do that, but also there’s more embodied means I have done this work so much that it’s become second nature. And while I might still have a limiting voice or a limiting thought or limiting belief, I catch it and I decide I use I’m curious and not judgmental with it. I’m thinking, I’m feeling that. What I want to do with that? Do I want to just immediately shift it, because it’s total BS? Do I want to explore it? Do I need to take myself through some of my own tools and resources? Do I just need to go for a walk? Like, what does that mean for me? That’s the difference in mastery and embodiment. And people use, people use the term mastery all the time, but

Valerie Friedlander 16:49
Well, that’s what I love, to kind of define things like, what do they what do they mean? What do they mean to a person? And what you know, how do we label ourselves with those definitions, or how might we be? You know, I love The Princess Bride. You keep using that word. I don’t think it means what you think.

Heather Vickery 17:07
It means what you think.

Valerie Friedlander 17:09
But sometimes that’s sometimes it’s because somebody is actually misusing a word, but sometimes it’s because we have different understandings of the experience. Like and I, I think when you said that for me at off, I often think about, like, what I have here, like mastery is, like, I could recite this thing, or I can take the test on it, you know, I can do it. But embodied is, like, there’s a sensation to it. It’s like the difference between like, I would say, like auditory and visual and kinesthetic, almost like should take it into those…

Heather Vickery 17:42
Yes, I think for me, it’s a it’s both. But yes, absolutely, because there is, you know what I would say, I have mastered embodying this meaning. It’s second nature to me. But I do, yeah, I do a lot of somatic stuff. Somatic is really important to me, and I think we have to know what things feel like in our body if we want to make really good, aligned decisions that are best for us and not just best for somebody else.

Valerie Friedlander 18:15
Yeah, yeah. And having that understanding of the this is, this is like a response. This is an activation, versus this is, like, I kind of differentiate, and I think there’s a lot of we could probably go off on a tangent. But like, that difference between, like, your gut and your intuition, I think they can kind of be the same. But like, I think of the gut is like that, that limbic system response the automatic like, you know, there’s a trigger there, something that I’m acting off of, versus the intuition is almost like this deeper, like all the pieces of me are lined up and and I sense, and that’s, I mean, it’s not easy. And I wouldn’t say I have mastered

Heather Vickery 19:00
There you go, see.

Valerie Friedlander 19:01
Yeah.

Heather Vickery 19:02
And I will tell you that through my human design work, I now know that not everybody has a gut instinct. So if you’re listening to this and you’re like, Yeah, I that that doesn’t feel right to me. You may not have a gut instinct, but it doesn’t mean you don’t have intuition,

Valerie Friedlander 19:20
Yes, yeah, well, it’s the same thing, because I just learned that there’s an actual term for folks who can’t vision.

Heather Vickery 19:27
Oh, yeah.

Valerie Friedlander 19:28
Right, because I’ve had some clients who, you know visioning doesn’t work for them because they can’t see it. The idea of visioning is not there, and there is a word for it, and I don’t remember what it is right now, but for those listening, if that is you, because most of the time they just, they’re like, well, it’s just not something I can do. I don’t know what’s wrong with my brain. And it’s like, no, actually, there’s like, this is a thing.

Heather Vickery 19:49
It’s a real thing. And I think that’s important, though, again, for people listening, because there’s so many different types of ways we experience the world. When I’m doing, like, a I have a program called the Glimmer lab. We do live hypnosis or, you know, whenever I’m supporting people a if it’s one on one, you can easily ask. When I ask you this, do you see a picture in your mind? Do you hear something? Do you smell something? Do you feel something in your body? We can do that, but if it’s a group, and we can’t do that, I always make sure I cover those bases. See what it looks like, hear what it sounds like, feel what it feels like. So hopefully something hits for someone, maybe because of the work that we’ve done, as for lack of a better term activists, right? Like understanding that just because it’s our way and works for us does not mean it works for everyone. And how can we be more inclusive with that.

Valerie Friedlander 20:41
Yeah, I really appreciate that. And so that. That also brings me to one of the things that I think sometimes people talk about it, but not often do we like center it necessarily in the conversation. But you know this, my focus this season is on mission driven Chicago women and so assuming have a mission. But you know, so I do differentiate between the idea of a mission in like the work that I do, versus a mission being like a focal point or a purposefulness. I’m curious one, what does being mission driven mean to you and to what? What does it look like for you?

Heather Vickery 21:30
Yeah, first of all, I want to acknowledge it’s not necessarily the easiest question to answer for folks like you got to do real work to have a clear concept of what your quote, unquote mission is. And I don’t have a sound bite down, so I don’t think it can evolve too like, yeah, it does, yeah. I think that it does static thing professionally. But also, like, across the board, there are. There’s a role for everyone in the world. And I’m going to kind of go back to this activism work, because it relates to my work in this way, I’m probably not going to be the person locking arms and blocking protesters from ice. I’m not very strong. I’m not, you know, it’s not that I wouldn’t, it’s just that I’m that’s probably not what I’m going to sign up for, but what I will sign up for is giving emotional support to and whatever kind of skill set support to I can, to the people who are doing that. Right? Okay, so, coming from that perspective, I have chosen to take on this mantle of joy, of being a joy warrior, of being using joy as a form of resistance, a joy, a joy as a form of creating more ease in our life and more alignment in our life. And that often feels in this very messy world that we live in laughable like I’m gonna come out here and I’m gonna sell you joy when people are being shot in the streets and people can’t leave their homes. And then I get over myself and my ego, and I go, Now, folks, we need this work. My work matters. And if, if one person that I support can shift all of these internal narratives that have kept them from really showing up for themselves and having what they want, personally or professionally, and leading for more joy and choosing themselves and then modeling that behavior and shifting the way they show up. And part of it is when we approach from a I call it leading from embodied joy, we’re so much more creative in our problem solving. Now, this is neuroscience, right? So if you’re focused on what’s not working, you’re going to get a whole lot more of what’s not working. And if you’re focused on maybe what is working and what does feel good, you solve your problems easier. So from a mission standpoint, I want to help people do that because it matters and because it’s contagious, and because people see it and they think, oh, maybe I’m not stuck here. Maybe it doesn’t have to be like this. So that is my mission, to be a joy warrior, because it changes the world. Yeah, you had another question, but I talked too long, and I don’t remember.

Valerie Friedlander 24:27
No, well, you, you, what you said encompassed it. That’s really because, like, what does that look like? And, and, you know, in your work, I mean, that’s, it’s apparent. And, um, you know, I think about, like, what are you? What are we creating? Yeah, right. Like, if we create from I don’t want this place, then, you know, we’re not, we’re either, we’re not going to create it. It’s going to be really hard, because it’s like, trying to create behind you. Like, yeah, I want to create. This world, this different world. Instead, it’s like, you know, burn it down, but then what? And so what’s the point? And especially, I think, when you’re building into something that we might not get to see,

Valerie Friedlander 25:14
Yes, Yeah.

Valerie Friedlander 25:15
Right? If we’re trying to build a world that, like, we know, it takes time to build something new. It when we’re thinking socially, you know, sociologically, all these things, it takes time. It’s generations of of healing and and building and creating and so no, we probably aren’t going to get to see that. How do you keep that sustainable is absolutely by finding the ways to to fuel the joy within you otherwise. I mean, we’re talking about creating change for, you know, in greater ease, and that is, and it is ease. It’s also sustainability, like,

Heather Vickery 25:54
Absolutely, there’s got to be, it’s got to be sustainable. And it my litmus test this year, 2026 and it kind of came to me through doing some somatic and NLP, work with another practitioner. I need to be excited about whatever it is that I’m really committing myself to. And I found that I have been holding back in selling my stuff. I’m not on meta, so I don’t have Facebook, I don’t have Instagram. Well, how do you do that? Like putting myself out there and finding ways to promote it? But the reason was because it felt too hard. So I’m not an expert in all of that. I don’t have unlimited financial resources on all of that problem solving that for me needed to be how can I simplify this so that it feels easy, because ease equals excitement and excitement equals me showing up joyfully, and that has been really my whole focus this year.

Valerie Friedlander 26:59
Are there? What are the if there are, like, a few things that you found that helped do that for you, what would have they been?

Heather Vickery 27:10
Yeah, one of them has, I have this really gorgeous website. If any of you want to check it out, please do. But it’s detailed. I didn’t build it. I had somebody help me build it. It has 5000 pages. I do now have the skill set to add, like, a sales page or whatever, but I really don’t want to. I really don’t like it, and I also don’t know that. I think it’s necessary. I think it continues to create the overwhelm community. We see somebody else’s long, detailed sales page, and by the time we get to the end, they’re like, I’m too tired to click buy now or whatever. So one of the things is, I have really shifted to like, just a checkout cart thing with some highlighted bullet points. This is for you. If this isn’t for you, if here’s how you say yes. That just felt fun. Like just taking that component out was like, Oh, that freed me a little bit in person. Connection has been another one since I’m not again on some of those larger social platforms. Shameless plug, I host a monthly networking breakfast called the Chicago Empower breakfast. It’s the second Friday of every month. One of these days, we’ll get you there. Valerie, I know you have a client.

Valerie Friedlander 28:21
Oh, the Fridays are a tricky time for me.

Heather Vickery 28:25
I know. But since everybody is here is in Chicago, come and check it out!

Heather Vickery 28:29
Yes, definitely.

Heather Vickery 28:30
But I that so being in conscious community, being thoughtful about where I am, I’m a projector in human design. For those of you in the know on human design, I do not have unlimited resources of energy. I’m very careful about where I put my time and energy and how much of it I am willing to give away. So finding in person opportunities, where I get my cup filled, where I can really engage the Chicago Empower breakfast does that for me, but I built it that way, right? Like the I love it. We come in it’s high vibe. It’s it’s high touch, you know, friendly, loving, inclusive. It’s not a sales pitch. So that is one of them, but I will go to other in person events. So any of you listening, or any of these other guests, if you have something super cool in person that you think matches my vibe, you should send me an email let me know about it. So that helps too, because if I’m in a space where I feel safe and I’m excited that I’m talking about my work, and people get excited, and even if I just make friends who think about me like this idea of being some somebody that people talk about in rooms you’re not in to to share and elevate like that’s I want to be that person. I think I am that person in a lot of cases. And I want to be with those types of people so that I can put their names they can come out of my mouth when I’m talking to you or somebody else, they go, Oh, you need to know so you need to know Valerie, because she’s so, you know, whatever it is. I want to be able to do that, and I want that to be reciprocal.

Valerie Friedlander 30:00
Yeah. Yeah. And that’s actually you hit on. One of the reasons why I decided to focus in on Chicago women is partly because of those opportunities. And I do have listeners who are not in Chicago. You should come visit. You should come visit. And maybe that’s, maybe that’s in the future. I’ll put a photo thing together so that folks can come visit, but that way we’re meeting and connecting in real life. Because I do think that that is, you know, for me, Joy resides in connecting to other people, and I know that, like for folks who tend to and I have mixed feelings. Not mixed feelings. I have feelings. They’re not really mixed about the whole like, introvert, extrovert thing. I do think that it’s important to know, like when you’re spending energy and when you’re refill, you know when you’re refilling your energy, rejuvenating yourself, and knowing kind of the spaces that those different experiences happen in, and what your needs are, but to put yourself into a box can create connection in terms of like, oh, you get me. But it can also be a way of really limiting…

Heather Vickery 31:15
It can.

Valerie Friedlander 31:16
your understanding of yourself and even your ability to notice what’s going on. And I think, you know, there’s, there are lots of different spiritual understanding about, like, when, when people are gathered together, you know? And what that, what that does, I think, energetically and spiritually, I think joy…

Heather Vickery 31:37
It’s powerful

Valerie Friedlander 31:37
for me at least, and from what I have observed with a lot of other people is that in those intentional spaces, that’s where we can really connect with our joy and knowing, you know, I’m a part of something, you know, belonging is a is a core need, maybe the core need of us biologically, and so to feel like I’m a part of something in an expansive, creative way. Then I don’t have to do it all.

Heather Vickery 32:06
Yeah.

Valerie Friedlander 32:07
One in terms of, like, all that’s huge things, what my part is in it. And I feel connected

Heather Vickery 32:13
There’s a job for everyone.

Valerie Friedlander 32:14
Exactly! So, so I love that you said that. And I was just like, Oh, perfect. You just hit on exactly here.

Heather Vickery 32:23
Yeah. I mean, I also host retreats. And I just, I haven’t announced a new one for 2027 yet, because I’m still recovering from the one we did in January in Costa Rica. It was intense for those like, I loved it. I love leading communities. I love being in person. It’s all of those things that you just said, however, I highly underestimated how physically and emotionally taxing it would be for me to hold an open container for 14 people for seven days, and I came home and was out of commission for like, a whole week. I thought I would get back to regular work. That was not happening. I was like, nope, reschedule everything. I still want to do this, but I learned a lot of lessons about how I can do it in a way that honors me and honors everybody else. But what was undeniable was the shift that happened because people were sharing collective in person, space together. And I always want to be a change agent like that, because it is so cool.

Valerie Friedlander 33:18
Yeah, yeah. I love it absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing that. And again, that goes back to that whole like, if we label ourselves introvert extrovert, if we put ourselves in a box versus going this is going to take a lot of energy, and I know that, but I also know that it’s worth doing, and I know that these are the things that I need to do to create support for myself so that I can do this extra energy give or whatever that looks like.

Heather Vickery 33:47
Yeah, because I do know now for me, retreats are going to be maximum 10 people and probably four to five nights instead of seven, because then I can take two nights on the front end and two nights on the back end for, you know, getting myself prepped, relaxing, all of those things so that I can be fully available and functional for all the people who need me in all The ways and places, including myself. Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. So I would love to know what, what do you hope that people would take away from listening to this conversation? I would hope that if you’re listening to this you take away the knowledge that just because things are challenging or difficult doesn’t mean that you should ignore joy. I promise you, you will get through the challenging moments easier if you also allow yourself to experience joy. Way and and sometimes that shows up in really unexpected ways, but we have to be looking for it. We have to be ready for it, because what you focus on grows, and I guess that’s the takeaway, right? Like, what you focus on grows, and I am not in the toxic positivity business, right? I am not in ignoring your feelings or ignoring what’s happening. But I do know for a fact that lots of things can be true at once, and if you can allow joy to be something true for you, it’s your life is going to feel better. It just is.

Valerie Friedlander 35:31
Yeah, yeah, absolutely and, and just to tie into that, the what we’ve already talked about is change often includes grief

Heather Vickery 35:42
Often.

Valerie Friedlander 35:43
And grief and joy can go together.

Heather Vickery 35:46
Yes,

Valerie Friedlander 35:47
You can totally have both of those things at the same time.

Heather Vickery 35:51
Probably do because I have joy at being alone. I love to be alone. I have four kids. Love to be alone, and I miss them desperately when they’re not with me, and I have a lot of grief that even though I chose what was right for me, that my choice led to us not being together all the time.

Valerie Friedlander 36:11
Yeah, yeah. I think of joy as being something that can be all encompassing of all of the things,

Heather Vickery 36:18
All of the things.

Valerie Friedlander 36:19
And so, yeah, so I hope people find something you know… What do you need to take off, what do you need to release to access joy? What do you need to what would help inviting in to access more joy? So to wrap up, I like to ask first, what does it mean to you to be unlimited?

Heather Vickery 36:51
Oh, gosh, why everything feels like a big question today?

Valerie Friedlander 36:55
I ask big questions s ometimes.

Valerie Friedlander 36:56
It’s a big question. For me, being unlimited feels like this is going to sound so Woo. It feels like trusting the process. It feels like knowing that I don’t have to know how to trust that everything will work out just right for me, because it always has, if I’m honest, and it might have taken some time, it always has, and so being unlimited means don’t limit myself to thinking that it’s going to be, you know, it’s got to be done like this, or it has to be like that, or it doesn’t count. I’m open to abundance and joy in every single way it wants to present itself to me.

Valerie Friedlander 37:35
Yeah. And when you want to invite in that feeling, what song do you listen to?

Heather Vickery 37:44
I’m so glad you asked me that. It’s aperture, by Harry Styles, the newest single release from Kiss, all the time, disco occasionally.

Heather Vickery 37:51
Okay, it’s all the time.

Valerie Friedlander 37:53
So if, if, for those of you who may be new here, I have a playlist. It is available. I think I put it on Apple as well now, but on Spotify, where every guest I’ve asked this question since the start of this podcast. So there’s a whole and it is so varied. It is, it is one of you want, like a whole mix of different feelings and but every one of them are things that my guests have said, This is what I’m listening to, that that bring this, this feeling of expansion and unlimitedness. So check that out.

Heather Vickery 38:30
Yes,

Valerie Friedlander 38:32
Thank you, Heather, so much for joining me today. I really have appreciated you.

Heather Vickery 38:36
Oh, so much fun. Thanks for having me.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai